September 15, 2006
Hearing what you want to hear
The pope is in hot water, through quoting Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologos in a speech, which is being deliberately mis-interpreted:
Stressing that they were not his own words, he quoted Emperor Manuel II Paleologos of the Byzantine Empire, the Orthodox Christian empire which had its capital in what is now the Turkish city of Istanbul.
The emperor's words were, he said: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Benedict said "I quote" twice to stress the words were not his and added that violence was "incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul".
"The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application," he added in the concluding part of his speech.
"Only thus do we become capable of that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."
Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey, and the Organization of the Islamic Conference have all weighed in with their own versions of what the Pope said, and how insulted they are: "The derogatory remarks of the Pope about the philosophy of jihad and Prophet Mohammed have injured sentiments across the Muslim world and pose the danger of spreading acrimony among the religions."
Update: Do check the comments on this post, if you don't normally do so. Alan and the Flea have been carrying on an extended conversation there . . .
Posted by Nicholas at September 15, 2006 08:32 AM
I am struggling to think of any opinion which does not cause these people to whine and seethe with offense.
Stop treating an allegedly clever man like a dolt. He chose those passages and has to live with that choice. They insult - and are inaccurate given the foundation of science the Islamic world gave us among other things like oil and any number of ways to look smart in slacks - Freddy Mercury for God's sake. Would it kill the Pope for him to admint Freddy Mercury..ok, he was Parsis but you get my point. Omar Sharif. We can go with him. The only man cooler than 007.
I am reasonably certain Mr. Ratzinger meant to say exactly what he said. And quite right too.
The "foundation of science" remark is self-parodying so I will leave that one alone.
Backstrokery. The factette repeated by Benny is not true, it is hurtful and it is inflamatory. No one should be surprised that it has inflamed and hurt.
PS - I understand Jesus is seeking advice on the termination for cause provisions in relation to Rome.
I can only point you to the light. You must walk out of the darkness yourselves: http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/books/tursci.html
Ahh, you have found reference to a dust-jacket summary of a book by some Communist. Quite a rhetorical coup on your part.
I can only point you to the light. You must walk out of the darkness yourselves
That reminds me of what I told Nicholas when I first showed him wonders of the MovableType comment system:
I can only show you the doors. You have to deal with all the knobs.
Tweeeeeeeeeeet! 4:30 pm. Shift's over.
It is a shame about the whistle-blowing. If you find yourself on the intermanet at home you might consider reading the Pope's speech by preference to letting the Globe and Mail do so for you. This because I believe you are the most likely of any man I know to agree with Benedict's argument; excepting me, of course, and neither of us a Catholic.
That is fair and a measure of trust I likely do not deserve. My point is do not make the reference to the dead guy at all if you are making the statement. It is bad argument making. But I will read the thing itself.
OK, I read the BBC excepts...and now the pdf: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf
First, you Mr. Flea are clearly leading me to the postive reference to Dund Scotus. I am flattered by postive references to the greats of tartandom but there is more to me than that. The problem with his use of the quotation remains. He is clumsy. It is unnecessary to his point and, like the clumsy professor, he trips into the inflamaiton he never saw coming.
Here are the further issues I would have in terms of the lack of skill Benny displayed. He prefaced it with calling the statement maker the "erudite Byzantine Emperor". This implies approval of what follows as he has not qualified the statement. Plus, he does not include the clearly required and balancing apology for Papal led use of violence for the expansion of the faith. This to any one outside of the Roman faith is a huge screaming error in both understanding facts and understanding making an argument. He has repeated an insult while being careful to not insult his own. Then he yaps a bit about the western tradition without reaching out beyond it.
As far as I can tell he has said "My pal says your sister is a slut" when all the while he is aware (as we all are in this theoretical analogy) that his own sister is a whore. His point may have been valid and it may be one that I might be very sympathetic to but he has expressed it like a jackass.
Well, in all fairness my pal did say his sister was a slut.
Did he? Did he say tht Rome led more religous mass murder sprees in the middle ages and afterwards than Islam ever did? If he did say that then he is admitting that his sister is a slut, too. Though, as we are talking about past track records, it would mor properly be grannie.
Well, in all fairness my pal did say his sister was a slut.
Oh, that's okay then. A totally acceptable reason for a theological head-butt to the chest.
I see that there is some sort of anti-vowelism going on on my part in all the above. Why is that?
"Not without good reason, in his famous lecture held in 1883 at the Sorbonne, Ernest Renan said that attributed the merits of Averroes to Islam would be like attributing the merits of Galileo to the Inquisition."
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Oriana Fallaci
I think that quotation makes you and I both right.
Let me preface by apologizing for all the crimes and transgressions commited by my clan which has achieved the absolute highest level of Scotish achievement throughout history, and thanks accepted for your morning oatmeal and round of golf.
The quote in question was politically incorrect, but accurate. regardless, the academic discussion the Pope chose to entertain cannot be properly reflected in today's sound-bite world.
The quote referred to Mohammed's contributions, NOT the Islamic ones. (If confused, actually read the quote) But, all this is off-topic.
The reaction of the often misunderstood "religion of peace" to the charge that it is one of violence???
Burning of churches, riots, murder of nuns. This is not off-topic.
You connect the dots.
"...what Muhammad brought" is not Islam? Was it a new way to make egg salad?
